Is Second Division Soccer Neccesary in the USA?
Let me preface this article by stating I do not subscribe to the view that I am about to write about. But enough MLS fans have expressed concern to me about what they consider a piddly minor league dispute potentially affecting the good work of MLS and the USSF since 1996 that I felt it was only fair to air some of these views.
Here are some of these thoughts:
“USL is a waste of time and space. Anything USL does, MLS and the USSF can do better. The USSF has academy teams spread throughout the country and promotes the national team as a brand name that is the “home” team everywhere.”
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“USL’s death would be a good thing for American soccer. It would allow the MLS brand to spread itself into places like Minnesota, North Carolina, Atlanta and also get back into Florida. It is MLS that promotes the sport with clever marketing, a real TV contract, and Sportscenter highlights/good TV audience and brand recognition and USL that no one knows are cares about.”
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“After so much time has been invested in MLS, and it has done so much good work for American soccer, this new NASL threatens everything. The USSF must reject the NASL and take USL out of the business of professional soccer. If you do not have enough fan support to join MLS, support the closest MLS team. With 18 teams around the country and more coming, teams are now close enough to everyone to support. “
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“The teams from USL-1 and USL-2 can either be moved to MLS or replaced with amatuer teams playing in the area. USL’s youth system is obselete now that the USSF has its own development academy club team system and even if this dispute is resolved, the USSF should step in and shut USL down, forcing the youth teams to join the USSF system and the pro teams to either join MLS or drop down to the amatuer ranks. That would be the best solution for the American game and growing the brand. Fans in cities that previously had USL teams can support as new amateur team, growing that side of the game or pick the closest MLS team to support.”
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“With MLS achieving so much success the last few months, you and other soccer writers have focused on a dispute between minor league teams in minor league cities. It is a disservice to soccer in this country and quite honestly, MLS is what matters, and is our league. Most soccer fans have never heard of Carolina Railhawks or Miami FC and do not care. American Soccer is MLS, and these teams should either play by the rules or be shut down. “
Comments taken from various message boards and emails to me since the beginning of the USL/TOA dispute.
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I’ve editorialized in the past that too many american soccer fans have confused what is good for MLS as a business as being good for American soccer. One such example is when a USL team, Puerto Rico faced an MLS team Toronto FC in the CONCACAF Champions League, but so many US fans openly backed a team from Canada with less than half the number of American players that the USL team had.
The above listed comments rub me the wrong way, but they do represent a significant segment of American fandom. This group does not care about soccer beyond the MLS level, and often times shows a contempt for discussion of anything else in American soccer (unless it is the national team).
One more note. The closest Mexican League team (Atlante) is less than half the distance from me in south Florida, than the closest MLS team is from me (DC United.) So the comments that state that MLS teams are close to everyone are slightly bizarre.
Categories: United Soccer Leagues
People who don’t want a second level of the sport ignore that MLB has a second level, NBA has a second level, NHL has a second level. The NFL uses college, but the NCAA players and coaches are already professionals.
The Tacoma Rainiers don’t destroy MLB as a product, nor do the Yakima SunKings destroy the NBA, people aren’t sitting in NHL offices worried about how they are losing fans to Kamloops. Thankfully the people of MLS aren’t worried about the 2nd tier threatening their league, except if tangentally and worried about how the image of the sport will be damaged.
A strong 2nd tier (other pro tier) is necessary in order for there to be some kind of loan out and/or scrimmages for the developmental players in MLS.
Those people are incredibly parochial.
I don’t think these people are necessarily “parochial”. I think they see the existing MLS as a “finished product” instead of as a work-in-progress. If MLS is to continue to grow, then its quality of play must continue to improve. To do this, we have two alternatives: (1) bring in many more foreign players, or(2) improve the quality of US players. Option (1)is a bad proposition for now because potential American fans, new to the sport, will reject MLS as too foreign. As the sophistication of the American fan increases, foreign players will be more accepted, but not yet.
This leaves option (2). Unfortunately the current structure of US Soccer continues to be dominated by a coaching structure (college and ODP) that is wedded to the mechanical and physical play best exemplified by the play of Virginia in the college cup finals. The only way to break the strandlehold that this group continues to have on the identification of skilled players is to allow and encourage the Minor Leagues of soccer (USL, PDL, NPSL, etc) to identify and develop those players that have either been ignored or have slipped through the cracks in the existing system.
For anyone concerned with the current pool of players for the USMNT, it should be obvious that we must stop the current reliance on the product being provided by the maajor colleges and ODP. MLS needs to strengthen its links with these leagues in oder to provide a logical structure going forward. MLS has a much better feel for what the “product” requires than USSoccer does so MLS should take the lead.
Let USSoccer ratify the agreed upon arrangement.
Couldn’t agree with you more Kartik. These anti-USL/NASL comments are some of the most ignorant things I’ve ever heard. “The USSF must reject the NASL and take USL out of the business of professional soccer. If you do not have enough fan support to join MLS, support the closest MLS team”? It’s almost comical how stupid that sounds. As you said Atlante is closer to us South Floridians then the nearest MLS club. Veracruz is about the same distance.
And these people seem to forget that every major soccer nation on Earth has AT LEAST 2 divisions below the top tier. A second tier(and third) is necessary because MLS a) will never be able to inhabit all the markets in the US and Canada that can support soccer and b) has abandoned an entire region of the US(the Southeast). And since a second tier is absolutely essential to the growth and popularity of the sport here, USSF must sanction NASL and let the second tier move forward.
Yeah, we need to get rid of the USL-1, 2, and PDL leagues because the USSF Academy sytem has been Soooooooooooo productive. LMAO.
Some of those comments are on the money. Consider that many fans do not watch MLS on TV hurting the nielson ratings because they go to USL games which is minior league. The only way soccer grows here and gains recognition on ESPN and SI is by growing our MAJOR LEAGUE.
In 14 short years, MLS has become perhaps the most competetive league in the world. No one has heard of USL or TOA and this dispute threatens it all. The World Cup bid and all the other good work MLS and the USSF have done recently.
I dare the people here to name ONE player from USL in recent years that anybody would recognize. All it is doing is employing people who would be working in car repair shops and on construction jobs. Nobody with any soccer talent plays USL.
Here is what I propose-
- The USSF rejects the NASL petition and forces USL to only maintain a third division
- The amatuer ranks/PDL are disolved and made MLS reserve teams connected to each of the 18 MLS teams
- The second division is made up of former USL teams with a real stadium or stadium plan and a game plan to move to MLS before 2015. Other teams will be folded or will have the option of being an amatuer team with a connection to an MLS team if nearby.
Having competing leagues is stupid. The investment made in the MLS brand has been immense and everyone worldwide knows MLS. USL no one has ever heard of. That’s why everything needs to be branded MLS or not branded at all.
Does USL even have the type of partnerships with foreign clubs MLS has? No way. Not one foreign club other than maybe a fourth division club in Slovakia would be involved with USL.
As far as youth soccer, USSF has a national development academy. The USL Super Y league is badly organized joke. Again, either a youth club has a plan to join the USSF program or should simply stick to its local area.
USL has done more damage than good. The NASL will do even more damage, forcing MLS to fend off a rival upstart league rather than focus on continued improvement and building on a brand which is very recognizable around the globe.
NASL is also dangerous because of the linkage with the old NASL. Then again, when people abroad realize this is not the old NASL, and is simply an inferior, cheap imitation they will lose credibility.
The sooner USL and NASL are gone the better for everyone.
The other problem is that we do not want a strong second league being able to take MLS players who are under contract but choose to strike. After all MLS has done to build this league and the game, we soccer fans should be standing up and protesting the players saber rattling and desire to destory the structure which has made MLS so successful.
The big union mob tactics that the MLSPU are employing must be stopped and the MLS must continue to have a safety net structure in place to grow the game. The NASL being approved would simply hurt MLS and allow the players to take MLS down in their efforts to build a union and rob the owners blind- these are owners who have invested so much in this sport against great odds in this country.
I think MLS fans feel threatened by NASL, what have they got to lose?
If that is the question and their is something to lose it just proves how unstable MLS really is.
RWT
So which MLS team are you on the payroll for or do you work directly for the league? I can’t see for a second how the USL or NASL compete with the MLS unless you’re talking about have teams from both leagues in the same city, although you obviously see this as a threat as exhibited by the tone of your position. Thanks for convincing me of the rightful need for 2nd, 3rd, and Player Development Leagues beyond what is being done currently by the MLS.
NASL or USL will hurt the MLS while this union tries to strong arm changes to a very successful structure. It is best we have no second division this year and beginning in 2011 it is made up of teams ready for MLS by 2015.
Maybe some of the teams don’t want to got MLS now. Maybe NASL teams and second division have something to prove, we are not push-overs and USOC 2010 will be the most challenging for MLS to date.
HAS to be a tiny, tiny percentage of US soccer fans and posts. If you look hard enough you can find people who will post anything. A great majority of US soccer fans want the USL/NASL rift settled, so there can be a strong second division. Those who express other opinions are certainly entitled to their ideas, but I am also entitled to call them moronic crackpots not worth wasting time on.
“I dare the people here to name ONE player from USL in recent years that anybody would recognize”
Brian Ching, but there are dozens
“Does USL even have the type of partnerships with foreign clubs MLS has?”
Stoke City and Crystal Palace and Werder Bremen
Yeah, damn the MLS Players Union that wants to give it’s players freedom of movement in the league and get every player making a LIVING WAGE PLAYING SOCCER.
Other than the name, there’s nothing Major League about the MLS setup…
“Does USL even have the type of partnerships with foreign clubs MLS has?”
Tampa Bay Rowdies and Liverpool
“Does USL even have the type of partnerships with foreign clubs MLS has?”
Burnley and Cary Clarets. Fulham and the entire league
Some USL Alumni that RWT might recognize:
http://www.trisoccerfan.com/index.php?query=USL+Alumni&amount=0&blogid=1
So many fallacies in this argument it is not even worth discussing.
Unlike your other rant, this makes perfect sense. I have suspected all along the USSF’s posture towards BOTH the NASL and USL has to do more with Sunil gulati’s desire to protect MLS’ owners and the Krafts who employ him than anything truly related to helping soccer on a mass level.
I don’t know who you are are where you come from, but you have given us some insight I think will be valuable for the readers. Thanks!
Not top mention Vaden Ibesevic who was leading the Bundesliga in scoring last season when he got hurt.
Right on RWT!! Everybody knows that you can’t go to a local USL/PDL/NPSL game and then go home and watch the MLS on TV. Baseball has been fighting this same battle for over 100 years and you can see how it has destroyed the national past time !!!!!!! Besiodes that everyone also knows that theonly way to play Major League baseball is to play it in college, right???? OOOPPs!! Forgot Triple A farm teams.
What I would like to see in Miami is MLS and not NASL.
Man Miami is not a Second Division Soccer city. MLS will succeed it just need to let it come true.
Miami already had MLS and it did not work. I think South Florida fans ought to embrace NASL or risk being left with nothing for the next 30 years.
I’m getting tired of South Floridians saying “We want MLS and only MLS.”
Stop it already. It’s not like MLS is the Premier League or La Liga. Embrace what we have down here and eventually you’ll have MLS or the comprable league (whatever it is at that time).
People may criticize Traffic, but can you blame them for not putting resources in the market when people constantly say “we don’t want this or that, or we deserve this or that.”
Would I rather have MLS than USL? Yes. But, we need to deal in reality. True or not, MLS is perceived to have FAILED in south Florida and the crowds for Miami FC as well as selected friendlies locally have done nothing to change the perception that the market is bad for the American game.
I never understood why the USL,made a structure almost perfect for being the first North American soccer league that practiced pro/rel,but never really did.
On my ideal us soccer league,the PDL would be the perfect third division.8 regionally divided groups is the perfect number;that way clubs traveling distance is economical.
Two clubs could qualify per division,that would be 16 for promotion playoffs,and maybe 4 should be a good number to be promoted to a second division.16/8/4.
USL never did implememted pro/rel.Look in the mess they are now.
Then let me help you: because there’s no money in it. The economics keep it from happening. USL has/had a structure of limited promotion based on factors other than just winning the division below it, but very few teams ever took advantage of it. In fact, more teams have moved down by their own accord than moved up.
Make sense now?
PDL teams, by and large, are amateur teams. Very few of them have the aspiration of moving up to the professional level – the expenses go way up, the revenue not so much. They simply – by and large – don’t have the resources to move up to the professional level. How on earth this escapes you escapes me.
Cause, meet effect. No, not really. There is no connection between pro/rel and “the mess they are now.” None.
First off, pro/rel wasn’t feasible and still isnt’.
Second off, there was a limited promotion scheme and there was plenty of (self-)relegation.
Thirdly, you’re an idiot.
Honestly and truly…I have not seen an issue regarding American soccer that has brought out more uninformed, frothing-at-the-mouth, knee-jerk, naive, howl-at-the-moon stupid commentary by ignorant fanboys. Never.
For anyone to think that something that weakens American soccer is good for American soccer is just mind-boggling to me. The fact that many of you have such unbelievably naive points of view that aren’t fact-based just blows me away.
How can you all be so stupid? Honestly?
Okay, then give us 23 more, then. Go. Should be simple, right? If there are “dozens?”
Charlie Davies, Marcus Hahnemann, Jay DeMerit, Bobby Convey, Seb Le Toux, Osvaldo Alonso, Steve Cronin, Kyle Beckerman, Mac Kanji, Heath Pearce, Maykel Gallindo, Dominic Kinnear, Craig Waibel, Cam Weaver, Alan Gordan, Brian McBride, Sacha Kljestan, Robbie Rogers, Robbie Findley, Nate Jaqua, Ali Gerba, Dwayne De Rosario, Brad Evans, Preston Burpo, Sharlie Joseph, Edson Buddle, André Hainault, Colin Clark
That’s a mix of national team guys and/or MLS guys playing in PDL, USL2, and USL1/A-League
Other than the argument that USL/NASL gives players a relatively viable alternative to hold out from MLS, I can’t think of any reason to justify restricting lower division soccer in the guise of improving MLS. (Taking it a bit further, I’m not sure the “names” in MLS would possibly go that far. Why would someone on a 200k salary risk injury for a fraction of that money. The appeal would be to the first through third year guys that know that USL is capped in economic potential, but can match their paltry 30-70k salaries they have in the intro MLS contracts.)
I think USL does more for the quality and interest of soccer in the US than the collegiate game. The collegiate game’s only benefit is to provide a playing opportunity to young athletes that otherwise would probably give up on playing soccer since they can’t make a viable living at it. The down side is that it atrophies players due to poor, uncreative coaching and immature competition. Wayne Rooney has been playing with professionals since age 16-17. If he were born in say, Boston, he’d probably be finishing his final year of eligibility this year, or would have been in the MLS draft this last go around after playing for some NE University.
I’m surprised the MLS feels this susceptible to USL/NASL.
Jason: First of all I am not going to answer your insults.(no need)
I will go to the points.
” The economics keep it from happening”
If the top few PDL teams were to be promoted,they would have an incentive to invest a little bit more in their organization.
The exitment of a posible promotion through a play off system would bring more fans to their games,since they would be playing for something relevant for the first time.More attendance means more money.
Let me mention that not all the PDL teams need to be 2nd division ready for a pro/rel system to work.If just a few are thats enough.Im sure that at least 3 or 4 teams on the PDL could play on USL2 and not horrible.
Also on a pro/rel system a club have to meet some criteria in order to be promoted.If it dont meet that criteria ,or dont want to be promoted,club is not promoted.As simple as that.
A whole bunch of thirld world countries use the system suscesfully.
Promotion and relegation is by far the most popular system on the planet.US is one on the richest countries there are.The argument of economics is real weak.
Point #2
“PDL teams, by and large, are amateur teams ”
The current system would hold them amateurs forever,while a pro/rel one would give a chance to grow to those clubs that win that right on the field.
point#3
” There is no connection between pro/rel and “the mess they are now.”
yes there is!! if they would have become the clear alternative to the synthetic product that MLS is,they would have gain fan suport,credibility;their whole organization would have been stronger and they would have gain a lot of international support in the form of partnerships. they would have been the first US league to use pro/rel, I am sure that alone would have win them the harts of US soccer fans.
point 4:
“For anyone to think that something that weakens American soccer is good for American soccer is just mind-boggling to me”
And you call me stupid???
How much weaker do you think american soccer could get??
We are being eliminated from the CCL(the must important club Competition in our confederation)by clubs from Panama and Trinidad and Tobagos.While they try to sell US Superliga wich isnt even FIFA santioned.
How can you pretend to be a real US soccer fan and be happy with our current system,especially after 14 years.
How much longer are you willing to wait to be able to enjoy a meaninful US soccer league??
I love soccer,I live in the US.I want us to enjoy a real soccer league,no the systhetic product that is being shove down our troughts. Clubs with fake names and no history,no pro/rel dogfight, franchises, stars game. If you are a real soccer fan(wich I really doubt)and you are happy whith this “product” keep it, I pass!!
For me soccer is more than a sport,it is a link between people,and cities and countries,and continents.It should not be a privilege of a few selected “markets” to have a club, and only promotion and relegation can acomplish that in a meaninful way.
USL has won 40 percent of head to head matches with MLS since 2005. That is the highest percentage any second division has versus a first division in either Europe or CONCACAF in that period.
P Dawg, how do ties figure into your counting? PK Shootouts?
And are you using only USL-1 for USA while for England using EPL v only Championship?
Because your numbers (yes I only did to 07) don’t come close to mine.
If you use Points won per match in England (FA Cup) the lower divisions win 38% v here its 45%
As a fan and active volunteer in one of the towns impacted by the USL/NASL/TOA dispute (Austin, TX), I was ecstatic when the Aztex club was formed and I feel that the owner is the real deal, with a solid front office and a great understanding of the game. I’ve talked to him and Austin does not have the fans to support an MLS club, but it absolutely is the right size market for a USL (or equivalent) team. I have seen several MLS players pass through the club – in discussions, some of these players have seen minutes of playing time in their stint on the MLS squad (that time is measured in years, btw), but see much more playing time on our squad – this is a win-win for MLS, USL, and US soccer. The game is the best teacher and without playing time, a player simply will not develop. How to get a player some “seat-time”?? 2nd division is the answer.
The link with Aztex/Stoke is an excellent example of the situation we face in the US – Stoke City, as a soccer club, has been in existence for over 100 YEARS! If we are really, truly interested in soccer in the US – that is the timeline we need to focus on (vs next year or the year after). We need to plant the seed (2nd/3rd div teams) in as many communities as possible and bring soccer to the masses to make it as popular as it is in other countries – I can envision this happening, but it will be 20-30 years for the seed to take root and we need to develop the grassroots fan-base to make this happen. This absolutely requires a 2nd tier of soccer clubs to use to develop raw players for MLS or Europe, or Mexico, or to allow players to get their feet back on the ball if they have been out injured.
I spent some time in Ireland this past summer and stopped by a small town – Cobh – on the seafront. I bought one of their soccer teams shirts – Cobh Ramblers FC….bet most have not heard of them either, but I talked to owner of the sports shop – he said they’d had players advance to Premier League (though most have not) – that’s the place where the game is really played and players are developed, imho. Players have to have a place to develop their talents….or to remain and continue as the town’s best/longest playing/most active in the community/place title here, but bring soccer into the mainstream as not just another sport, but one of the top sports to play.
A great analogy is a forest – the MLS are the mature trees, but for the forest to continue to grow it needs seedlings and smaller trees as well. The US soccer ecosystem is in need of a top-bottom approach and management to allow the US “forest” to grow. It’s hard to imagine what the US could do in soccer if we had the right approach.
A LIST OF THE STUPIDEST THINGS I SEE ON THIS PAGE:
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5. “Nobody with any soccer talent plays USL.”
You forget that throughout its history, USL teams routinely beat MLS teams in both Voyageurs Cup (Canadian) and US Open Cup (American) competition. Did every one of those victories come because MLS teams had bad days? Me… I will say that there is very little difference between MLS and USL players. The number of former players from MLS playing in USL clubs will back me on this. The inter-league competition record will as well. Certainly the two leagues have never been “equal” in terms of competition level, but to say nobody with any soccer talent plays in the USL just reeks of stupidity. Europeans say the same of the MLS. Really, the talent level is hardly different, it’s the RESOURCES and MONEY in the MLS that make it the superior league.
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4.”I dare the people here to name ONE player from USL in recent years that anybody would recognize.”
http://www.thebesteleven.com/2008/04/former-usl-players-now-in-mls.html
^Plenty of recognizable names there.
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3. “USL’s death would be a good thing for American soccer.”
This is one of the most common attitudes expressed here… if a team can’t fill a stadium with 10,000 or 20,000 people, then the team doesn’t deserve to exist. Why? Seriously, why? If only 5,000 people in a city will go out to support a team, why can’t those 5,000 fans have a team? In most places around the world, some cities have 2 or 3 or even 4 pro teams (all soccer teams). The big teams draw 60,000 fans. The smaller clubs draw 5,000 or maybe even less. Who’s to say that the lower divisions are wrecking it for the higher division? Some cities in the states are NEVER going to support an MLS team. But why can’t they deserve a smaller team?
Any of you been to a soccer game in Seattle or Toronto? Not every MLS team can even draw the sorts of crowds those cities are bringing in… I’m sure some fans in those cities feel that other teams in the league don’t deserve to be there based on fan numbers…
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2. “…you and other soccer writers have focused on a dispute between minor league teams in minor league cities. It is a disservice to soccer in this country and quite honestly, MLS is what matters, and is our league. Most soccer fans have never heard of Carolina Railhawks or Miami FC and do not care. American Soccer is MLS, and these teams should either play by the rules or be shut down.”
^ Obviously a comment from someone who lives in an MLS city. There’s nothing wrong with the writer talking about something that affects people in Carolina and Vancouver and Montreal and Miami and Rochester and a dozen other cities. Are you saying that soccer fans in those cities don’t deserve news that affects them? Seriously, not everyone pays any attention to the MLS.
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1. “even if this dispute is resolved, the USSF should step in and shut USL down, forcing the youth teams to join the USSF system and the pro teams to either join MLS or drop down to the amatuer [sic] ranks.”
This sort of centralization has stymied the North American game forever. No one here is ever allowed to be a true entrepreneur when it comes to soccer… which is hilarious, given the capitalist nature of the United States. But seriously, SPORTS IN NORTH AMERICA are run like communist empires. Anytime anyone starts up some competition, people run for the hills scared it will wreck their major league.
The MLS is a great example of this with centralized contracts and even rules that its clubs are not allowed to have development academies etc. Seriously, in Europe, every club has that. Europeans would laugh at the ideas of a “college soccer draft.” THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH COMPETITION. IT PRODUCES
a) More places for talented youth to play
b) Incentive to be better than the other guy
c) A natural death for systems that aren’t working.
Giving the USSF direct control over the ONLY development system allowed in the country would mean American soccer turning into… well, the Canadian soccer system.
Trust me, Americans, you don’t want to go there.
Lucas, if USL and MLS were equal in talent why does MLS win the Open Cup at nearly a 95% rate?
Also, if MLS teams are forbidden from running academies why were four players signed out of academies this past Fall? in fact why does every MLS team run an academy?
Until MLS expands its rosters and improves scouting usl/nasl is always going to win a large pxt of games vs mls. The soccer don ought to take note.
If large rosters = success why don’t Colombian teams win the Libertadores every year?
Kartik, relax. I have a story for you.
I’m on this college pointyball board reading a heartfelt plea from a Washington State fan to recognize your Internet surroundings. He recalls an instance where he felt he was having an educated conversation with someone about the Pac-10… that someone turned out to be a 9-year-old girl.
Point- OF COURSE we’ll have uneducated views on this subject. That’s what happens when the Internet doesn’t require everyone to plug their computer chip brain implants into the system for verification.
Personally, I could take that “promote 5 PDL teams and those owners would have to invest more” buffoon, bury that in invective so deep and brutal that it guarantees Jimmy Hoffa will be found first, while I party like I’m at a college mixer. That comment made me laugh, however, and the correct answer is “nothing forces an owner to invest more than he or she wants; one merely FOLDS the team.”. However, whining about this issue probably causes more problems than it solves.
So, kids, I believe Confucius said “you have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion” or something like that. The folks with Timbers Army who steer the tone of the Soccer City USA board have refined this into a science; treat the kids like crap, and they’ll shut up until they get up to speed. Those with sense get my drift.
Lucas, if USL and MLS were equal in talent why does MLS win the Open Cup at nearly a 95% rate?
^ I never said that the USL teams were equal in talent. I understand that in their meetings with USL squads, MLS teams win about 70% of the time (and are probably not playing full squads most of the time).
That said, to say that this means USL teams are full of talentless hacks is a comment completely devoid of any sense. Players move up and down between USL and MLS quite frequently.
As for the development comment… I was referring mostly to the completely ridiculous and restrictive rules that the MLS has had for their youth academies.
(http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=578695&cc=5901)
Kartik, Don’t give up on MLS. If you guys want it fight for it.
Once again Kartik rails against MLS. Yet, if an MLS franchise landed in FL he would be singing praises to Garber and take note of the fantastic job MLS has done promoting soccer. That last sentence is sarcasm, not about MLS, but Kartik. Get off your horse. MLS is top tier and your market does not have it, so you try to disparage those who do. We all need MLS to succeed just as we all need lower levels of the game for development. We do not need you taking some poor fools comments and have you insinuate their words are those of all MLS fans, which is what you are trying to do here. We need to support each other, not fight over the ridiculus assertions you make.
I suggest you read MLS Talk tomorrow, where I am basically going to say Garber made the right decision pulling the plug on Miami and not coming back.
My unhappiness at MLS has little to do with the lack of a SE franchise, although I think that is an issue. It has to do with the structure, with the arrogance of MLS HQ, and MLS centric fans, with the failure of the league to develop players as it once did, with the failure of the league to adequately prepare most US players for international competitions, with the inflexibility of the calender, with the salary structure for the players, with all the silly rules that prevent teams from developing a long term identity (with the exception of DCU, but they have lost so many players thanks to these rules), with the announcers on TV who will never critique the product adequate thus preventing a REAL fan culture from taking hold, the fact that MLS always over values its players in the transfer market and thus has denied player like Taylor Twellman the chance to play abroad when they were given once in a lifetime opportunities.
My issues with MLS would exist even if they had five teams in southeast. Many of my issue with the league could be addressed if the new CBA is done properly. I’m tired of the excuses. MLS is not a three or five year old league, it is now a fifteen year old league. At some point its structure and the way it is covered needs to mature to reflect its age and the world we live in.
Kartik, do not get your hopes up about the CBA. MLS owners are cheap and they are constantly in survival/crisis mode. MLS fans who reflect this always putting up pathetic defenses of the league as if they are reading from the owners talking points.
Your laundry list of criticisms listed are all legit in my book. But why don’t we have a similar list about USL from you, a league that similar is in violation of FIFA rules and whose adminstrative attitude, like MLS is hurting the growth of the American game?
Your points about MLS are on the mark, but you never gave the similar critique about USL, which is why many of us think you are biased against MLS and disposed towards USL since they are based in Florida.
These comments on the post are just plain dumb.
Tommie, those USL critiques are probably not on this thread, but an even handed assessment of the USL is located throughout the Kartik report as well as the other websites and podcasts. If you read the USL-TOA analysis you’ll see both compliments and criticisms of the USL and why they are at a crossroad(I’ve been following this story since September when I was looking for some USL podcasts. None existed online, but the USL at Crossroads came up.) The TOA grievances reflect the shortcomings of the USL, especially dealing with the USL structure. That structure as pointed out in these reports and podcasts is more restrictive than the single entity MLS. USL is a franchise model like McDonalds. The USL does not support its teams as much as it could. If a team fails, USL sells the franchise rights to someone else. There is the sad reflection on how many USL teams that were strong 10 years ago and are now defunct or gone to PDL.
I’ve been following football in the US since 1977 when the Cosmos beat the Strikers 3-0. Goals by Beckenbauer, Chinaglia and Pele (If memory serves me). Broadcast on a local NYC TV station in prime time. It’s a different time now with market segmentation and billions of channels of distribution, but soccer was big. Seeing it big, then disappear, then slowing regenerate as the A League and MLS gives you a different perspective on the current success of MLS. I want to see MLS succeed. I can compliment MLS and criticize MLS at the same time. If you’ve seen soccer fail once, you don’t want any league to fail. From WUSA to USL to MLS to NPSL. As I said, I’ve been following the USL TOA since September over podcasts and reports. The only bias I see is against incompetence at soccer officials who, as much as they want to promote soccer can get in the way of it’s continued growth and survival.
This is so wrong on so many counts, I don’t know where to begin. Either get off the drugs you’re on, or start taking some. There is so much BS in this that I have to clean my shoes. MLS can get into any market it deems viable, NASL/USL or no. The TV schedule for MLS is so varied, people can go to USL/NASL games, and watch MLS games on the tube. As for players in the USL having no talent, I imagine the national teams of Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago would strongly disagree with you, as well as others. There has indeed been player movement between level, Mac Kanji going from the Silverbacks to Red Bull comes to mind (mainly because it killed whatever chance the ‘Backs had of going to the playoffs in 2008, and was sort of the writing on the wall as to what was going to happen to the team). MLS and the USL/NASL benefit from having two divisions, and I say the more the merrier. Now, the USL has made a lot of bonehead moves, and has made a lot of people mad, hence the new NASL, but they have lasted longer than either the old NASL and MLS to date. Too bad they were so shortsighted that they cut off their nose to spite their face.
Kartik–just started following your “Report” and “MajorLeagueSoccerTalk” a few weeks ago but I’m thoroughly hooked — keep it up!
In your comment above #44, you referenced one of my major problems with the MLS coverage on TV and in print–a reluctance to criticize the “product”. Since we are in agreement, can I assume that you will get specific with actual criticisms of specific MLS team’s play and of the inadequacies of the coaches?? or will you cop out and pull a “Dellacamera, Stone, Martino” ??
Thanks! You can be rest assured I call it as I see it, and more often than not that means the USSF and MLS deserve to be criticized.
Any USL/NASL news?
Conrad’s idea……sounds interesting…..6-team MLS playoff from single table and 2 teams from separate league(s) of USL 1 and USL 2 and NASL and TOA.
Not every market is large enough to support an MLS franchise, that said many USL-1 markets have done a better job of supporting their club than MLS markets.
Perhaps the most difficult thing for many soccer fans to see is the 80,000 seat Giants Stadium with little more than 15,000 fans watching New York Red Bulls. Even in cities with soccer specific stadiums, MLS teams still struggle to fill smaller venues (both Colorado and Dallas struggle to get 12,000 a game in soccer specific stadia that seat around 20,000).
By contrast, Vancouver and Montreal sellout every game with strong community support and attention in the local media. Portland averaged over 10,000 a game this season in a 19,000 seat facilty.
The second division provides the ground from which the crop grows to improve MLS. Also, to say that MLS has been a success in its first 14 years ignores some unavoidable truths: Tampa Bay and Miami failed in MLS; MLS clubs have been a bust in CONCACAF Champions League; MLS insistence on scheduling games during FIFA International Match Days and their ridiculous roster rules adversely affect the competitiveness of many teams.
For those who enjoy a good game of soccer, many Div 2 clubs provide that at a fraction of the cost of an MLS game in a more intimate environment. MLS is not necessarily the best soccer around simply because it is called Major League Soccer and is labelled Div 1 by the US Soccer, the record of USL teams against MLS opponents in US Open Cup play indicates that quite often the lower division teams are as competitive as their top flight opponents, if not their better.
U.S. Soccer Board of Directors Votes Unanimously Not to Sanction USL or NASL for Division II Status in 2010
http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Articles/2009/12/US-Soccer-BOD-Votes-to-Not-Sanction-Division-II-League.aspx
The USSF’s decision not to sanction either league for Div 2 status is more an attempt by them to force a compromise than give either group the go ahead on 2010.
While I think this is a good decision, I must comment that the USSF should have made this decision a lot earlier in the game, waiting as long as they have only jeopardizes Div 2 soccer in 2010.
The obvious compromise in this situation is to allow the NASL to operate a Div 2 league and give the USL (namely NuRock) the mandate for national amateur and semi-pro soccer, however the NASL and MLS should be required to pay a support amount to the USL to promote player development and maintain developmental teams in the USL.
MLS demonstrated in the scrapping of its Reserve Division that it is not in a position to undertake this role and many MLS teams are involved in the PDL and the USL’s Youth Leagues.
For the sake of the many who support Div 2 soccer (over 800,000 fans attended Div 2 games in 2009), get a decision in place before the 2010 season is lost.
Ken, I agree. The mandate for USL for amateur soccer would have to be an enticement or payoff to stop the lawsuits.
guys how many leagues do you have?
To put that into the North American perspective, how many baseball leagues are there?
The number of leagues is irrelevant so long as the need in either player development or fan interest is met.
There are 15 to 20 professional leagues according to minorleaguebaseball.com, not just MLB. Forget the affiliation, each league and each team is a separate entity. Some teams are owned by the major league team directly, but not all. There is a chicken and egg argument to the “number of leagues is irrelevant so long as the need in either player development or fan interest”.
All I’ve been hearing for 30 years is how big soccer is at the youth level. How cheap it is to play the sport. In all those years no one seems to have been able to harvest that growth. USL has been good because it’s at the grassroots level. But not only do I think the need has NOT been met, more need can be created.
they must improve their performance, in order to get maximum results and can compete with other