USL/TOA/NASL Update
The gag order placed by the USSF on parties involved in the dispute between USL and several of its (former?) clubs has precluded fans of the clubs and reporters from gathering much information the past few days.This gag order was necessary given the poisoned waters of the rhetorical war that had ensued between all parties.
I am told by a source close to the situation that the USSF has been working diligently to foster a compromise that will work in the best interests of all the affected clubs. The source reveals that Dan Flynn, the Secretary General of US Soccer has done a remarkable job of attempting to build a consensus based solution to the extremely tricky situation. Flynn, I have been told has shown remarkable leadership the past several weeks.
Our source maintains that all plans currently being considered, would permit every current second division club scheduled to play in 2010, to play somewhere, be it in USL or a newly sanctioned NASL. It is possible that only one second division will play in 2010, but that every team planning to play in 2010 will be permitted to play regardless of the league they play in. So rumors that some teams would be dropped based on which league gets sanctioned can now cease.
With this small piece of information revealed, I certainly hope supporters of the affected clubs will have a Merry Christmas knowing whether it is the USL or NASL, to plan on a 2010 season. I have received a few emails from supporters of various clubs concerned that they will not have live soccer in 2010. Based on what I have learned, I believe fans can be assured their teams will play in 2010, even if we don’t know which league they will compete in, just yet.
So you talked to Dan Flynn’s secretary.
I am now seized.
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What are the proposals? Sanction one league or the other and allow every team to move?
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It sounds like their will only be one second division league and my bet is on NASL.
USL needs to give up and stay third division status. from 9 to 6 USL-2 teams.
USL-1 is dead.
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I just want a team back in Cleveland.
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NASL will be the one and only league.
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My sources back up this reporting but I understand BOTH leagues may be sanctioned but would play under a single table for this year alone and be clearly designated as NASL 11, USL 11 or MLS 11
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I dunno whitesarw, sounds to me like the USL-1 will still be around, at least for 2010. The only teams that had to worry about being “dropped” in any scenario were teams like St. Louis that were never part of the USL-1. Therefore (if you give this source’s statement above any weight), I believe it points to the USSF forcing the USL-1 to take these teams back, and NOT sanctioning neo-NASL in exchange for dropping any lawsuits that could suspend 2010 the season.
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you can’t have st. louis not play in 2010, with all the progress they have made compared to FCNY
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so what does this mean? USL/NASL one league
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maybe they should do the old MLB arrangement (National + American) and have two leagues that don’t play each other until the playoffs.
So you’d have the NASL play its season as it wishes, and have the USL play its season as it wishes. Then the playoff teams play each other within their leagues until the final, which would be NASL vs USL.
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Great news for St. Louis. Not-so-great news for any teams that might be forced into playing in USL-1 in 2010 against their will. But hopefully that would just be a one-year situation.
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Let me clarify something. The teams will not necessarily be forced back to USL. Two leagues may be sanctioned, or just one league may be sanctioned and the one league could still be the NASL or it could remain USL-1.
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So if the teams are not forced back, how can USL-1 play with 4 teams?
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Good news for us Miami fans then? I hope so. If “every team planning to play in 2010 will be permitted to play” then I can only see two outcomes: both leagues are sanctioned or just NASL is. Because I don’t see Miami, Atlanta or Carolina going back to USL. In the end I still think NASL is the way to go for D2. Most of the teams are dissatisfied with USL so it would be wise not to a) force them back or b) have two competing leagues.
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USL-2 only has 6 teams now
http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/389427.html
No Bermuda, No West Mass, No Williamington
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The fact that USL-2 only has six teams left tells us all we need to know about the managment of USL by the inept leadership of Tim Holt and Francisco Marcos.
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I hope USL is finally done for.
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NASL has all these great plans and USL nothing.
Yet the USSF tries to force “Compromise.”
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No… It tells us that those two teams thought it more financially viable to drop down. If it was what you say, they wouldn’t have stuck with USL to begin with.
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What would be great to see is a legitimate peace between all parties, I really think the USL has good standard from the Super Y, W-league and PDL. I would be, in my oponion, in ffavor of US Soccer that The NASL becomes the “pro branch” of the USL. Thus making the NASL teams the Div 2 Soccer league. Allowing for even the USL 2 branch to move in with the NASL. However I think certain teams that want a “semi-pro” that are now in the USL-2 should move down to the PDL and do like the other PDL teams that pay players, and save costs.
Super Y/US Academy/ODP—WLeague/PDL/WPSL—NASL—MLS /WPS ( If WPS lasts past 3 years )
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Kartik… Given that Tony Glavin owns the rights to a USL1 team in St. Louis, where would that put Cooper and A.C. St. Louis, if USL is the only sanctioned league? I don’t see Cooper and Glavin getting together.
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This is good news, but again, it’s part of the negotiation process. I take this on face that there is progress being made and that the parties are working hard. We don’t know what the final agreement will look like. There are still a lot of issues on the table and I would guess that the cores issues of money and contract obligations will either make or break the agreement. And these are the issues that will be settled last.
I didn’t realize that there are only 6 USL2 teams. I hope that the USL2 model which is a regional professional league will play in 2010.
I’d like to think through about the money issue in these negotiations remembering that it’s not all about money.
The money issue manifests itself in different areas. Of the top of my head I’m thinking franchise fees, operating costs, contract litigation costs, and lost revenue.
From what I’ve read on these posts any agreement would have to have USL monetarily compensated. The lawsuit by the USL against the 3 teams is at least a negotiating chip. The cost to make this go away will be part of the final agreement. USL has a number in mind. It’s got to be at least $750,000 per team (franchise fee). Here NASL has got to be promising the 3 teams something. Some money whether the judgment goes against them or to settle.
I bet that USL will also ask for additional compensation because it‘s also losing its 1st and 2nd divisions because it doesn’t have enough teams with the defection to NASL. This argument can’t be sustained because it would mean that teams are obligated to USL beyond the expiration of their franchise fees.
USL may argue about territorial rights because they are the only sanctioned Division 2 league. This could go a number of ways: Pay off USL for the claim to go away, have USSF sanction USL or have NASL play an unsanctioned season. Here the NASL has to weigh loss of CONCACAF Champions League, US Open Cup and any other non league competitions that bring in money. I don’t know how easy it is to get 10 or 12 teams to play in a non FIFA or USSF sanctioned league. I’m sure FIFA or USSF don’t want that on principle alone. As an affront to their authority, so something needs to be worked out. Again, money to allow a non sanctioned league. Sounds crazy, but it would be money for FIFA or USSF to keep their hands off.
After the 2010 season, the NASL teams can do what they want. But, in order to have a shot at surviving, they need to play this year.
I agree with JD in the hope for a legitimate peace and live Division 2 and 3 soccer next year.
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They MUST have a compromise so that the lawsuits against the 3 NASL teams won’t go ahead.
Next year, everyone is free to join which league they want. The USSF would sanction both leagues but by that time USL-1 will be dead…
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USL has removed the Rowdies and FCNY from their website:
http://www.uslsoccer.com/teams/index_E.html
So this means Rowdies are playing for NASL in 2010 and NASL will be sanctioned.
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Not really, as the USL site still lists the 3 USL-2 teams that don’t exist in that league. As well the site still lists the other NASL sides as being part of USL-1.
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Like DaveClark said, they didn’t remove anything – that’s the 2009 list. It still has Montreal, and other teams in the proposed neo-NASL on it.
Any ‘compromise,’ unless it involves the NASL buying out the USL’s rights, looks pretty grim for the NASL for 2010. In 2011, the litigation will have no bearing. They stupidly tried this one year too early, all because I believe Saputo wanted to use the NASL secession to leverage a MLS bid. He doesn’t really care about second division soccer after that.
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@ CVO
Please explain how trying to create a new 2nd division league helps Saputo in his MLS bid?
Montreal would get in no matter what 2nd division league they play in…And for your info, Joey Saputo has stated on the record that he will keep a reserve team in the NASL (if it goes ahead) after Montreal goes MLS.
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Promotion and relegation is the main reason why soccer is the biggest sport in the planet.It is at the core of FIFAs philosophy.
The idea is that everybody deserves a chance to compete.Be included.There is a global feeling of brotherhood about it.
Team finish on top of table.It gets promoted to a higher division.
Team finish on top of the country first division,it qualifies to play a continental championship.
Team wins continental championship;it qualifies to play the FIFA world Clubs Championship.
Also when a national team qualifies for the world cup, it is the same principle,it has been promoted to a higher competition.
Isnt it beautiful a country like Honduras gets a chance to play on the World Cup.
Isnt it Beautyfull that the FIFA World Clubs Cup links clubs from all over the world ,and a club from Korea plays one from Congo,and a club from Veracruz plays Barcelona.
I strongly believe that as long as US resist pro/rel, we the fans wont be able to enjoy soccer in its purest form. Having a club to represent your city should not be a privilege of a few “selected markets”.
If FIFA would use that mentality third world countries would not be granted a chance to try to qualify for the WC.
If we are denied a chance to experience a pro/rel dogfight, an esential ingredient of the pasion a real soccer league generates is missing.
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You do realize that the US Open Cup winner and Voyageurs Cup winners qualify for the CONCACAF Champions League? Nothing prevents USL teams from qualifying, except that they get beat.
Club World Cup has NOTHING to do with Pro/Rel.
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As long as there is not promotion and relegation USL clubs are prohibited the chance of playing in our “1st Division”.Therefore ,their chance for growth and their incentive to invest in infrastructure,playes,etc.is limited.
Imagine how could things develop if Charleston,Rochester,Montreal,Minesota,St Louis and other markets are given the chance of promotion and they would have to “fight” on the field for it. Dont you think that there would be a few benefits for soccer in US as a result?
“Club World Cup has NOTHING to do with Pro/Rel.”
Yes,in way it does.No club has a “franchise” on the Club World Cup; clubs have to win a continental championship to play on the CWC.It is in tune with the promotion /relegation philosophy.It is merithocratic.
Soccer powers have to qualify to play the World Cup.My point is,the people against pro/rel speak about it as an unimportant detail. IT IS NOT. It is the reason soccer is the most popular sport on the planet, by linking clubs,and countries on the diferent FIFA competitions.It gives our sport a feeling of inclusion,fearness,oportuinity and brotherhood.
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@Roger
The same rebuttle for why Pro/Rel doesn’t work. These people are ALL in different leagues. It’s just that simple.
There is no link between these teams in the US. They have the right to form different leagues throughout the US. England, Spain, Italy, it’s the same system that runs throughout, and these clubs are all part of that system.
In the US they are not. MLS runs it´s own thing, USL/NASL does their own, followed by NPSL/PDL which is on a different level.
The difference between a MLS club and a USL-2 club is huge, not to mention the financial instability of USL clubs on a whole.
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The Concacaf Campions League proved that the diference is not huge when it comes to performance.
The link has not being created just to protect bussiness interest. There is conflict of interest on US soccer; on one side we have the “inversionist” that are treating our sport as a wall street share; and on the other side we have the fans and the grow of the sport itself.
The true and real soccer fan knows pro/rel is the way to go.The problem is MLS “franchises” where sold originally with the promise pro/rel would no happen.Thats the reason we are stock.
I know MLS will never implement pro/rel.Thats why I have gotten to the conclusion that MLS and their market experts should disapear in order for US soccer to follow a meaningfull path.
As to the point of financial instability,do you think that a second division club in Nigeria or Brazil is more financially stable than Montreal or Rochester.I doubt it!! Yet the system works. All around the world.
We wont be fully integrated to the soccer international comunity until we implement it,but I know it wont happen until the fans make their voices heard very loud and they can not postpone it any longer.
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Roger, you can’t use the CCL as an example of an even playing field until you study this little thing called “sample size”
And then you study the numbers of ALL competitions that have both USL and MLS sides and realize that you are just plainly wrong.
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Dave, why dont you use that little thing called “sample size” and spplied it to what pro/rel is on this planet.
The number of countries that use pro/rel. Is that a sample size big enough for you?
If you use “sample size” you should agree with me,we should implement pro/rel. Dont we?
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Sample size is for statistical arguments, and does not apply to the economic argument of Pro/Rel. The economics of the USA are different, and honestly if the EPL started from scratch the wouldn’t have Pro/Rel.
Australia promised it but didn’t deliver yet.
Japan went 6 years before adding pro/rel and have changed their format several times
Neither have the economies of scale to deal with that the USA does.
Oh, and you can admit that you are wrong about USL teams being on par with MLS. They aren’t, it isn’t really close.
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Dave.I dont remember saying that USL teams are on the same level that MLS,but I think that results on the CCL and the US open Cup prove they are closer than lot of people think.
“The economics of the USA are different”
This is a usual argument among anti pro/rel people.US has the same economical system than England,Germany,Italy,Spain and so on. We live on a capiyalist society with open markets. Our economy was shaped by competition and oportunity.
We are like 8 times bigger than England,Italy and Spain all together,but we have a league smaller than wales’.It does not make sense!!
The actual system only benefits a small group of interests trying to hold complete controll over our sport.
Come on Dave! Pro/rel has been around for more than a century, nobody can denied that it has proven succesfull in every continent,in countries with diferent cultures and economical realities.It is only logical that it is implemented here.
If we consider US size,economy and multicultural composition as a nation,we should get to the conclusuion that pro/rel is a perfect match for north america.
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The economics of sport are vastly different in the USA and England – Issue 1 is travel. A team making only a million dollars a year in revenue could not afford the travel to be in a national league in the USA.
Also, note that the EPL is trying to reduce the amount of relegation, as they find it a historical detriment to the clubs making money.
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travel is a good issue.
On a pro/rel pyramidal system,the teams at the top will make more money and travel longer.The poorer teams at the buttom will make less money but travel a lot less. Dont you think it makes sense.
Dave. I have thought a lot about what would be the perfect US soccer “system” and I have come across diferent ideas. I have change my idea a couple of times.
Recently I was taking a look at the old NASL.They used four divisions and play-offs.I think that would be a good thing ,four divisions would give us the chance of having a number of clubs in good relationship with the size of our country,while drastically reducing travel distances.
For a second division the PDL structure is very good.It dobles the number of groups on first division.It is symetric and mathematically perfect.4 groups on top (first),8 groups on 2nd,reducing travel distances even more for the clubs making less profit.
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Roger, promotion/relegation will NEVER. EVER. work in American soccer. 1) Americans do not understand the concept, since no other American sport uses it. 2) Taxpayers will not be willing to fork over $$ for soccer stadiums for teams that may not be playing in MLS beyond one season and that may not end up back in MLS for years, and going through relegation is going to be a major hit to a team’s fan base. 3) Looking through historically at voluntary USL promotions, when a team goes up from USL-2 to USL-1, they usually end up back in USL-2 (or lower), or folding in a few years. It just would not be sustainable to go to that type of system.
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Mtndrums: Respectfully disagree!!
1) Americans are not retarded, pro/rel is not that complicated to explain.This great nation became what it is by adapting to new realities,new technologies etc.Yes I am sure americans would understand it.I think that the worse enemies of pro/rel are not people that do not understand it,but people that really understand it and knows that pro/rel would change the american sports landscape forever.
2)Taxpayers money is not the only income source that a club could get funds for stadius.On a pro/rel system ,the “entry level” division should have more flexible and economical criteria when it comes to stadiums and everything else.As they develop,they will need to fight to get better on the field,that would bring more income , and that would put those”small clubs” on a better position for creating better structures in order to be promoted.No pain,no gain!! Just like live.
3)Dont really applies,because USL never practiced pro/rel on a serious way.So the USL 1 never gave the “promoted” clubs…..sorry…..franchises,an atmosfhere of a first division where they could make profits that would compensate their expenses.Add to that the factor that USL has been a league completly isolated from the soccer world;in wich their champions go nowhere.Unlike the soccer world where winning means you earned the right to play a bigger and more prestigious tournament.
Your last coment is very popular among pro/rel atackers.”That system that we have never ever used, wont work here , even though it has proven to be suscessfull everywhere else” Doesn’t make much sense ,really?
Not only pro/rel links clubs on diferent levels. is part of a deeper philosophy that has made soccer be what it is on planet earth.
The secret of soccer is the pasion that it generates,and I believe that pasion has a lot to do with the way that soccer mimics live and its struggles.
Look for instance Juve in Italy.Got in trouble.Played one seasson on second division.Fought back.Now is trying to make it to the Champions League.
Look at San Lorenzo in Argentina.Got relegated while being consider one of the five great clubs in the country.60,000.00 fans average follow then every game on second division.
Pro/rel not only links clubs but it also links seassons making every new one a new chapter on a developing history.It gives our game a deeper meaning and a sense of purpose.
Soccer is a reflection of live , and live dont use a franchise system,LIVE USES PROMOTION AND RELEGATION
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